Raid Debuffs: let's get good at it!

Nouska

Raid Leader
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328
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Mage
Hi all,

In an effort to prepare us for the good stuff in BWL, AQ and Naxx I'd like us to use MC as training ground. I'm very aware that what we are talking about here is NOT necessary for MC, but it WILL be necessary for smooth raids in later runs. Ofcourse, there are still a lot of individual improvements that people can make to their output, but lets focus first on the BIG impact stuff. Here is an overview from the Debuffs we had up on Golemagg during our last fight. I pick that fight on purpose, as there are no real mechanics going on that prevent anyone from applying their proper debuffs.

1574928700947.png


As you can see, there is room for improvement here. The ones that are missing altogether compared to our earlier debuff list:

Faerie Fire
Gift of Arthas
Improved Shadow Bolt
Seal of Light
Seal of Wisdom

The other problem is the underwhelming uptime of some of the other ones. I know that the 1st 10-20 seconds of the fight is positioning, but that still is not an excuse to not start stacking the debuffs, as that can be done without risking to pull aggro once the 1st sunder from the MT is up. Warlock curses should all be above 95% on this fight: especially Elements was quite late here and that hurts our overall DPS a lot. Winter's chill is a little harder as you have to so SOME damage to apply it, but I would also expect an above 90% uptime on this, especially since we had 2 mages in raid that can stack it. As we did have a Shadow Priest in raid, I'd expect the uptime of Shadow Vulnerability to be a LOT higher here as well, also approaching 90% on this fight.

The uptime on Demo Shout is extremely bad. I'll leave it up to @Deen to work with the warriors in improving that, as this is not an isolated incident. Thunder Clap is also pretty bad, but in fairness that is not a debuff that was part of the planned 16 in the first place.

In regard to the missing ones: some of these are spec related (Improved Shadow Bolt) and both seals are admittedly not necessary on Golemagg. But for next time, as long as spec allows, let's try and train ourselves to make sure these are up on the boss. Gift Of Arthas was up on most of the other fights, so I think that was just an oversight.

Based on our current raid comp we have 3 slots available for Corruption. When we have a shadow priest in raid, we will reserve 2 slots of those for Shadow Word: Pain and Mind Flay. We will change this as soon as we get a Nightfall and Annihilator in our raids.

From this MC on forward, I'll keep publishing this overview in this thread. The assumption is that if we approach the perfect setup on Golemagg, we can also expect that to be the case on other bosses and make it part of our 'Raid Muscle Memory' as we WILL need it to clear AQ and Naxx later on!

For completeness sake: this is the overview we've posted earlier:

 

Swatte

Core Raid Member
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Very impressive overview, and very informative! Good job Nouska :)
 

Dia

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Winter's chill is a little harder as you have to so SOME damage to apply it, but I would also expect an above 90% uptime on this, especially since we had 2 mages in raid that can stack it.
The only reason I can think of is that we did not start DPS sooner, we usually wait for Inev to call the go. Otherwise, I cannot possibly imagine why it wouldn't have an uptime of 90%+. It's literally all we do...
 

Lasergun

Class Leader
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1st Aug 2019
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199
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Paladin
Ye i will make sure that doesnt happen again.
Thank you for this overview
 

Nouska

Raid Leader
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The only reason I can think of is that we did not start DPS sooner, we usually wait for Inev to call the go. Otherwise, I cannot possibly imagine why it wouldn't have an uptime of 90%+. It's literally all we do...
Yes, I think its a bit scary to start casting frostbolts even though the call is no DPS, but WC mages are allowed to R1 after the 1st sunder. Raid Leaders know that, but it can be rough to keep the other raiders 'on-track' as seeing frostbolts fly can be a trigger to start your DPS. We'll have to get used to it.
 

Deen

Class Leader
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Demo shout is indeed in a terrible place. I did not think it would be necessary but I will have to assign it on rotations if it can't be a natural instinct after 10 MC.. let's start from the top then ;)
 

Dawarrior

Core Raid Member
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25th Sep 2019
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Warrior
Demo shout is indeed in a terrible place. I did not think it would be necessary but I will have to assign it on rotations if it can't be a natural instinct after 10 MC.. let's start from the top then ;)
It gets mentioned virtually every time we raid - I don't understand how/why we keep failing to put these debuffs up. I'm happy to volunteer to keep Demo shout up for every fight.
 

Nouska

Raid Leader
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As OT that is't actually tanking at any point, you are a good candidate to keep it up. However, if you are actually off tanking something, another Warrior needs to take over. Like on Golemagg :). It's usually wise to in that case put the responsibility on the lower-geared warriors, but I'll leave that to Deen!
 

Rcarmine

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FF was missing a lot this week because Im usually the one to do it in Cat, but as Chicken Inev had to help out with it since its a silly nature spell. That time is already over again though.

Also I swear I only accidentally pressed MF 2 or 3 times yesterda xD
 

Repike

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Hey Nouska,

Awesome to see that you're using WarcraftLogs as tool now. I'm personally a sucker for logs and use it all the time.


Winter's chill is a little harder as you have to so SOME damage to apply it, but I would also expect an above 90% uptime on this, especially since we had 2 mages in raid that can stack it.
However, the image you posted seems to have different data compared to my logs, as on the last four Golemagg kills, WInter's Chill had an uptime of over 90%.

https://classic.warcraftlogs.com/reports/np3Zg9mYxGJQNhkA#fight=72&type=auras&spells=debuffs&hostility=1
https://classic.warcraftlogs.com/reports/W86NkYjQ3FMKwvn4#fight=1&type=auras&spells=debuffs&hostility=1
https://classic.warcraftlogs.com/reports/qa9fXRzQp27dAxHV#fight=63&type=auras&spells=debuffs&hostility=1
https://classic.warcraftlogs.com/reports/Kz8PpFA4QMLn3a6H#fight=51&type=auras&spells=debuffs&hostility=1

Furthermore, using the replay tool for each of these fights, you can see that the Winter's Chill mage (myself, in these cases) starts casting rank 1 frostbolts within two seconds of the pull.

What was your data's source?
 

Nouska

Raid Leader
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Interesting @Repike, the difference seems to be looking at it from two perspectives: Cast by Friendlies (my version) vs Gained by Enemies (your version). I'll dive deeper into that, because based on your logs it's a lot better then the overview I had. I'm tempted to believe YOUR log more as it includes Seriah's debuffs that aren't present for some reason in mine. Nevertheless it is good to create awareness, but just for completeness sake: this is the overview from your log:

1574962292497.png
 

Nouska

Raid Leader
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FF will be up 99% of the time, its just a bit unfortunate u did it this past week when carmine had some mental breakdown and though he was a chicken
If you look at Repikes logs over the last 4 kills, its between very high (97%) and terrible (46%, the chicken version).
 

Xannadu

Core Raid Member
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Great investment of time guys - really interesting read. We need targets to improve so I am glad to see this.

Let's get working on it!
 

Seriahmaius

Class Leader
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Priest
You can read a lot from these logs, even see an animated approximation of the fight. It gives a good birdseye view of the fight and you'll probably learn something from them if you're not careful.

Logs like these will also come into play when making progress in a raid, or to be spesific, when we're not making progress. It can show where improvements need to be made and if we're managing to execute the plans as well as we should be doing.

I've been using these logs for weeks to see how my healing has been progressing and also what's holding me back as shadow in raids. For example from the two weeks as shadow I've found mana to be less of an issue that I expected it to be, my issue now is a 5-6 %hit more and one can always get some more spellpower. Problem is as I'm gaining spellpower, I'm loosing mana in most cases, it's a tricky edge to balance. The %Hit is actually fairly simple to fix with a few talent points and an item or two.
 
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