Onyxia loot - quick question

Aneurysm

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Hi guys, this is mostly directed towards the loot council since they sort out all the loot and all that good stuff. I'm just wondering what the reasoning is for giving alts prio on onyxia head before mains? I'm sure there is good reasoning for it, but it kinda confused me a little bit because that ring is actually a really big upgrade for a lot of casters for PvP, and personally I'd really like to get it since I will make good use of it.

Thanks
Aneu
 

Prawni

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I think they motivated it by saying that the neck would be a bigger upgrade for an alt warrior than the ring would be for a caster main.
 

Aneurysm

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I think they motivated it by saying that the neck would be a bigger upgrade for an alt warrior than the ring would be for a caster main.
The part I'm not understanding is not how significant of an upgrade it is, but rather why alts get priority over mains on any type of upgrade, no matter how big or small.
 

Prawni

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The part I'm not understanding is not how significant of an upgrade it is, but rather why alts get priority over mains on any type of upgrade, no matter how big or small.
Ah, i see. That i would like to know too.
We should really clarify our policy regarding alts on all fronts.
Like when are alts allowed into raids?
For example, If I'm rotated out and there is a spot open but we are 7/7 mages in the raid, can i join or does it go to Neo's hunter as there is a hunter spot open?

Wall of text from @Redh , please! 😆
 

Rcarmine

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Yea I'm with you on that. From what I understood so far I thought the general rule was that it would be ok to bring alts to the main raids, but that a main would get first prio on everything that drops regardless of what it is. Exceptions maybe being cases of people rerolling mains like Iamashamed.
 

Redh

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The part I'm not understanding is not how significant of an upgrade it is, but rather why alts get priority over mains on any type of upgrade, no matter how big or small.
After the last Onyxia raid when this was announced I had a chat with @Naz and @Nouska about it, as I wasn't in agreement with the policy either and wanted to better understand the reasoning. My proposal was that this should be a PvP roll (Rank 5 or higher) > Alts. The reason I didn't pursue it harder, however, is because a) up until that point nobody else had questioned it, and b) it's a short term issue what with our limited alts, and so I left it at that thinking the issue would take care of itself within a few weeks.

So I am glad you have raised this, and I'm sure at the very least further reflection will be had before tonight's Onyxia raid by the Loot Council, and they will explain their reasoning both in this thread and at the raids tonight.

We should really clarify our policy regarding alts on all fronts.
Like when are alts allowed into raids?
For example, If I'm rotated out and there is a spot open but we are 7/7 mages in the raid, can i join or does it go to Neo's hunter as there is a hunter spot open?
Again, there have been discussions about this, and there was unfortunately a mix up in communication over the matter recently which I was hoping would be corrected.

I have always emphasised to members when they join us that we make a commitment to them, and ask the same in return. Part of that commitment is that we give them a regular raid spot and don't over-recruit members of the same class, keeping rotations to a minimum. In return, we ask for a high attendance and level of activity that ensures everyone is fully prepared for our raids.

Regular raiding with the guild is a commitment, and is our hobby. This is how we are choosing to spend our free time, and I don't want to remove the option to raid with us from anyone just because their main character has been fortunate enough to get all the gear they need from a certain raid. So my view is that the raid spot belongs to that member, and not just to the class they play.

This means that if a member does not require any items from a raid, OR they are unlikely to get any of the rarer items that may drop due to other members of their class being 'next in line', they may ask their Class Leader if they can raid on their alt. The Class Leader will make a determination whether or not this will have any bearing on loot distribution (ie, are they likely to get anything on their main this week), and if not will then confirm with the Raid Leader that the switch is OK and wont affect the viability of the raid. If both Class and Raid Leaders agree, the member may raid on their alt.

So, is it possible that an alt character will be in a raid over someone elses main? Yes, absolutely. And we should all be fine with this. There are many factors to consider when putting the raid composition together, and when classes are changed around it can have an impact on everyone's chances of getting the loot items they are hoping for.

For example: We usually take 7 mages to a raid. If a Rogue decided that they didn't need anything from the raid, and was passed over for a different members Mage main, then it would seem a little unfair on the rest of the Mages (and other caster classes) if that previously rotated Mage was awarded an item over them. Everyone is rotated equally between raids, so if there are extra members of your class in a raid then you have less chances of getting an item if it drops. This problem is avoided by taking an alt, as everyone understands and accepts that they are a lower loot priority from main characters.

Additionally, alts are GOOD for the guild. They increase member activity, grouping options, and may one day save us from having to cancel a raid because we don't have the required number of a specific class online. So alts should be supported!

But overall, my main reason for thinking this is what I started with - the raid spot belongs to the member as reward for their commitment to the guild and their activity. It does not have any impact on rotations, and the variety can keep some members motivated to keep on playing through dry spells.
 

Prawni

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After the last Onyxia raid when this was announced I had a chat with @Naz and @Nouska about it, as I wasn't in agreement with the policy either and wanted to better understand the reasoning. My proposal was that this should be a PvP roll (Rank 5 or higher) > Alts. The reason I didn't pursue it harder, however, is because a) up until that point nobody else had questioned it, and b) it's a short term issue what with our limited alts, and so I left it at that thinking the issue would take care of itself within a few weeks.

So I am glad you have raised this, and I'm sure at the very least further reflection will be had before tonight's Onyxia raid by the Loot Council, and they will explain their reasoning both in this thread and at the raids tonight.



Again, there have been discussions about this, and there was unfortunately a mix up in communication over the matter recently which I was hoping would be corrected.

I have always emphasised to members when they join us that we make a commitment to them, and ask the same in return. Part of that commitment is that we give them a regular raid spot and don't over-recruit members of the same class, keeping rotations to a minimum. In return, we ask for a high attendance and level of activity that ensures everyone is fully prepared for our raids.

Regular raiding with the guild is a commitment, and is our hobby. This is how we are choosing to spend our free time, and I don't want to remove the option to raid with us from anyone just because their main character has been fortunate enough to get all the gear they need from a certain raid. So my view is that the raid spot belongs to that member, and not just to the class they play.

This means that if a member does not require any items from a raid, OR they are unlikely to get any of the rarer items that may drop due to other members of their class being 'next in line', they may ask their Class Leader if they can raid on their alt. The Class Leader will make a determination whether or not this will have any bearing on loot distribution (ie, are they likely to get anything on their main this week), and if not will then confirm with the Raid Leader that the switch is OK and wont affect the viability of the raid. If both Class and Raid Leaders agree, the member may raid on their alt.

So, is it possible that an alt character will be in a raid over someone elses main? Yes, absolutely. And we should all be fine with this. There are many factors to consider when putting the raid composition together, and when classes are changed around it can have an impact on everyone's chances of getting the loot items they are hoping for.

For example: We usually take 7 mages to a raid. If a Rogue decided that they didn't need anything from the raid, and was passed over for a different members Mage main, then it would seem a little unfair on the rest of the Mages (and other caster classes) if that previously rotated Mage was awarded an item over them. Everyone is rotated equally between raids, so if there are extra members of your class in a raid then you have less chances of getting an item if it drops. This problem is avoided by taking an alt, as everyone understands and accepts that they are a lower loot priority from main characters.

Additionally, alts are GOOD for the guild. They increase member activity, grouping options, and may one day save us from having to cancel a raid because we don't have the required number of a specific class online. So alts should be supported!

But overall, my main reason for thinking this is what I started with - the raid spot belongs to the member as reward for their commitment to the guild and their activity. It does not have any impact on rotations, and the variety can keep some members motivated to keep on playing through dry spells.
Thanks Redh!
This cleared up things for me at least.

@Neobrijani , Don't be sad bro, it was just an example ;)
 

Aneurysm

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181
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Mage
After the last Onyxia raid when this was announced I had a chat with @Naz and @Nouska about it, as I wasn't in agreement with the policy either and wanted to better understand the reasoning. My proposal was that this should be a PvP roll (Rank 5 or higher) > Alts. The reason I didn't pursue it harder, however, is because a) up until that point nobody else had questioned it, and b) it's a short term issue what with our limited alts, and so I left it at that thinking the issue would take care of itself within a few weeks.

So I am glad you have raised this, and I'm sure at the very least further reflection will be had before tonight's Onyxia raid by the Loot Council, and they will explain their reasoning both in this thread and at the raids tonight.

Again, there have been discussions about this, and there was unfortunately a mix up in communication over the matter recently which I was hoping would be corrected.

I have always emphasised to members when they join us that we make a commitment to them, and ask the same in return. Part of that commitment is that we give them a regular raid spot and don't over-recruit members of the same class, keeping rotations to a minimum. In return, we ask for a high attendance and level of activity that ensures everyone is fully prepared for our raids.

Regular raiding with the guild is a commitment, and is our hobby. This is how we are choosing to spend our free time, and I don't want to remove the option to raid with us from anyone just because their main character has been fortunate enough to get all the gear they need from a certain raid. So my view is that the raid spot belongs to that member, and not just to the class they play.

This means that if a member does not require any items from a raid, OR they are unlikely to get any of the rarer items that may drop due to other members of their class being 'next in line', they may ask their Class Leader if they can raid on their alt. The Class Leader will make a determination whether or not this will have any bearing on loot distribution (ie, are they likely to get anything on their main this week), and if not will then confirm with the Raid Leader that the switch is OK and wont affect the viability of the raid. If both Class and Raid Leaders agree, the member may raid on their alt.

So, is it possible that an alt character will be in a raid over someone elses main? Yes, absolutely. And we should all be fine with this. There are many factors to consider when putting the raid composition together, and when classes are changed around it can have an impact on everyone's chances of getting the loot items they are hoping for.

For example: We usually take 7 mages to a raid. If a Rogue decided that they didn't need anything from the raid, and was passed over for a different members Mage main, then it would seem a little unfair on the rest of the Mages (and other caster classes) if that previously rotated Mage was awarded an item over them. Everyone is rotated equally between raids, so if there are extra members of your class in a raid then you have less chances of getting an item if it drops. This problem is avoided by taking an alt, as everyone understands and accepts that they are a lower loot priority from main characters.

Additionally, alts are GOOD for the guild. They increase member activity, grouping options, and may one day save us from having to cancel a raid because we don't have the required number of a specific class online. So alts should be supported!

But overall, my main reason for thinking this is what I started with - the raid spot belongs to the member as reward for their commitment to the guild and their activity. It does not have any impact on rotations, and the variety can keep some members motivated to keep on playing through dry spells.
I agree with your points - I had thought about not mentioning it as you say, we will all probably get the head soon anyway as we don't have too many alts, I'm just a little concerned about it transferring over to other items too. I agree that alts are good for the guild, and that people should be able to bring alts in place of their main and also that alts should get loot prio IF they become a new main (i.e in Timo's case).

I still would really like to see mains get priority before alts though - if alts get priority for items it removes the incentive for mains to come to the raid because people think well, they get the item on their main and then on their alt too, and i'm left with nothing. I'm not saying that's how I thought about it, but I could just come on my hunter and get prio on the head before my mage gets the ring, but that seems kinda wrong to me, i'd feel bad for taking loot away from a main on an alt, personally. We also have the gold DKP thing coming up for alts. Essentially, i'd like to see alts not affecting anything progression wise on main characters and have no problem with them getting loot after mains have gotten the items they need :)
 

Redh

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I'm just a little concerned about it transferring over to other items too
Per the discussion I had with the Loot Council, they considered this a one-off situation, and would not be replicated with other items. So no need to worry about that specifically.

However, the rest of your points I will leave for them to address, as they will do a far better job of representing their position than I ever could :)
 

Aneurysm

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Per the discussion I had with the Loot Council, they considered this a one-off situation, and would not be replicated with other items. So no need to worry about that specifically.

However, the rest of your points I will leave for them to address, as they will do a far better job of representing their position than I ever could :)
Haha, you're good too Red, i'm sure you'd do just as good a job at it! But thank you! Hope it doesn't come across the wrong way or anything like that. It's just a little hard to see how alts even came into the equation when were talking about items that mains still need, but no biggie, that's what these discussions are for :D
 

Nouska

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Apologies for the silence from my end on this, as we have discussed is and came to a working model that everyone could get on board with. I’ve been sick as a dog for the last 2 days and started to feel somewhat better only since this afternoon. I’ll follow up with a proper post on this soon... see you all at the raid tonight.
 

Naz

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I agree with your points - I had thought about not mentioning it as you say, we will all probably get the head soon anyway as we don't have too many alts, I'm just a little concerned about it transferring over to other items too. I agree that alts are good for the guild, and that people should be able to bring alts in place of their main and also that alts should get loot prio IF they become a new main (i.e in Timo's case).

I still would really like to see mains get priority before alts though - if alts get priority for items it removes the incentive for mains to come to the raid because people think well, they get the item on their main and then on their alt too, and i'm left with nothing. I'm not saying that's how I thought about it, but I could just come on my hunter and get prio on the head before my mage gets the ring, but that seems kinda wrong to me, i'd feel bad for taking loot away from a main on an alt, personally. We also have the gold DKP thing coming up for alts. Essentially, i'd like to see alts not affecting anything progression wise on main characters and have no problem with them getting loot after mains have gotten the items they need :)
Lots of replies here that are stacking up - in the interest of the short-term status of the thread I'll write a basic reply now from work.
I'm happy to talk about this at length later and/or clarify in depth in a further reply though!

Apologies for bullet points for now.

  • Did discuss this with Redh/Nouska after the raid, as Redh mentions above - we came to an understanding on the role of alts in raids, loot perspectives for alts, and how PvP on mains falls into the mix. I think a post will go up to clarify that soon.
  • Mains take priority over alts for PvE gear for sure, especially when those alts are just there for fun & spare gear
  • PvP gear is also prioritised to mains over alts (if I remember correctly)
  • Onyxia's Head (and Nef's head, Head of Hakkar, etc) are slight exceptionsto the above since they can be turned in for multiple different items.
    • The PvE option for tank/melee/hunter is very good - for some specs lasts forever, others it's BiS until Naxx or 2nd best from BWL to AQ
    • The decision between Redh and the LC was that the tradeoff is fair between giving these alts an item that will increase their effectiveness for when we need them / decide to use them in PvE, vs giving mains their PvP rings sooner.
    • We were satisfied that the impact to mains wasn't notably high. Even if we suddenly got 5 more Ony-ready melee/hunter alts overnight, the max delay for mains to get their PvP ring would be 10 days. Currently there are ~3 of such alts if I remember correctly.
Hope that all makes sense.
Apologies if I didn't completely reflect Redh/Nouska's opinions or the final decisions we made perfectly in that summary off the top of my head - but written guidance will follow shortly in an actual update post.

Cheers guys for asking the question though! And feel free to drop me a message any time if you have any more questions.
 
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Redh

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However, the rest of your points I will leave for them to address, as they will do a far better job of representing their position than I ever could
Told you so :D
 
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