Mage MAGES! Please read

Maitai

Core Raid Member
Joined
13th Aug 2019
Messages
95
Class
Mage
Hello frost bolt legends!

I want to apologise to you all. I have not been giving you the attention you deserve. I’m afraid work for me this time of year is always mental, but it is scheduled to calm the fuck down. So the time I get to play, I am either hungover or just want to zone out, so the idea of doing ‘mage admin’ gets pushed to the side to just focus on playing. I’m sorry for this.

So with that in mind I want to put your minds at ease by saying I will be better.

I will be better with scheduling who sits out for raids (please come to me about specific dates you can’t make, like Prawni has)
I will be better at updating who got loot on the specific raid nights (I’m travelling today, thus just this post from my phone, otherwise I would be updating that right now)
I will be better at updating my personal forum profile....as in, I will do it.
And lastly, I will be better at updating you guys with what is expected of you for raids.

That last point I will do right now. I have been in discussions with our exceptional raid leaders about what specs we should be for raids. We absolutely do not have the gear yet to be doing whatever we want for mc. But it’s coming....
So with that in mind, it will only be mandatory to be arcane for MC (apart for repike). For ony, we still need you pumping damage, so should have in your specs;

5/5 reduced frost bolt cast time
3/3 hit
3/3 threat reduction

One last time, sorry again for not being the class leader you deserve. I hope you all feel you can come to me about anything mage related....or other things if you so choose, see example below;

A bit of slap and tickle
What delivery to order?
What am I doing with my life?
Should I see a doctor about the sprain in my finger from spamming frost bolt?
Etc
Etc

Maitai xxx
 

Dia

Guild Officer
Joined
19th Sep 2009
Messages
3,718
Class
Mage
No worries, Maitai, we love you! I can't believe your job consists of you drinking! :p

...my finger was hurting a little from MC , hope it's nothing serious...
 

Repike

Class Leader
Joined
25th Sep 2019
Messages
412
Location
Netherlands
Class
Mage
Extracted from the Classic Mage Discord:
X: "Hey mages, I just had to switch to winters chill and was wondering if there is any point to using level 1 fb until there's 5 stacks of wc on the boss? Say there was 5 other mages and we're all doing average dps"

Y: "Well you lose 5 max rank frostbolts to give the others 10% more damage on 2 extra frostbolts (1 sec saved times 5 to reach WC so 5 sec total, i.e. 2 casts)... but 10% of 2 frostbolts means you need like 20 mages or something to get buffed those 10% to make up for you losing 5 max rank frostbolts yourself. Yeah you can complicate shit by saying r1 does a bit of DPS so you don't lose 5 max ranks completely, and they'd be without WC, and blabla but really it's not remotely worth it "

Let's gather some data (listed at the end of this post) and legit calculate this theory: "Is spamming Rank 1 Frostbolt till 5 stacks of WC better than simply casting max rank?" I will account for https://classic.wowhead.com/spell=16766/improved-frostbolt and https://classic.wowhead.com/spell=15053/ice-shards. I will not account for resists.

Let's start with the damage loss for the Winter's Chill mage. Let's say the mage has 400 frost spell power and 10% raw crit for this example.

In theory I just need to cast rank 1's for 5 seconds to apply 5 WC stacks, aka the time it takes to cast 2 max rank frostbolts
Rank 1 x5
(21 + 0.163 x 400) + 0.10(2.0 x (21 + 0.163 x 400))*
(21 + 0.163 x 400) + 0.12(2.0 x (21 + 0.163 x 400))
(21 + 0.163 x 400) + 0.14(2.0 x (21 + 0.163 x 400))
(21 + 0.163 x 400) + 0.16(2.0 x (21 + 0.163 x 400))
(21 + 0.163 x 400) + 0.18(2.0 x (21 + 0.163 x 400))
_________________________________+
551.68 damage

*First brackets = regular frostbolt damage, second part of the calculation is calculating average damage gained from critical strikes

Max rank x2
(457.5 + 0.814 x 400) + 0.10(2.0 x (457.5 + 0.814 x 400))
(457.5 + 0.814 x 400) + 0.12(2.0 x (457.5 + 0.814 x 400))
_________________________________+
1910.764 damage

Personal damage loss: 1359.084 damage

Do the quicker Winter's Chill stacks provide enough of a damage boost for other mages to make up for this?
Again, I will consider each mage has 400 frost spell power, 10% raw crit and has both abovementioned talents. I will not account for spell travel time. Each mage starts casting at the time.

In this table, I will first see how many max rank frostbolts non-WC mages cast compared to the Winter's Chill R1 spam.
Regular mage first frostbolt hit2 stacks of WC (+4% crit)
Regular mage second frostbolt hits5 stacks of WC (+10% crit)*
*in practice, this will likely be just 4, due to travel time and the game being slow to register new stacks
In this table, I will first see how many max rank frostbolts non-WC mages cast compared to the Winter's Chill max rank spam.

Regular mage first frostbolt hit1 stack of WC (+2% crit)*
Regular mage second frostbolt hit2 stacks of WC (+4% crit)*
*in practice, this will likely be 0 and 1 respectively, due to travel time and the game being slow to register new stacks
......
First question: how many mages are needed to make up for the 1359 damage loss, if the WC mage was to spam R1 frostbolts?


Damage gain by regular mage per stack, within 5 seconds:
Damage without WC at all
2((457.5 + 0.814 x 400) + 0.10(2.0 x (457.5 + 0.814 x 400)))
_________________________________+
1879.44 damage

Damage with WC being stacked by R1 frostbolts
(457.5 + 0.814 x 400) + 0.12(2.0 x (457.5 + 0.814 x 400))
(457.5 + 0.814 x 400) + 0.14(2.0 x (457.5 + 0.814 x 400))
_________________________________+
1973.412 damage

Total damage gained by regular mage thanks to quick WC applications: 93.972 damage
Total amount of mages needed to make up for WC-mage damage loss by spamming R1: 1359 / 94 = 14.45* mages🧚‍♂️
*I guess the 0.45 is a gnome mage

Conclusion: the quicker application of Winter's Chill by spamming rank 1 frostbolts results in such a damage loss for the WC-mage, that 14 (and a half) mages are needed to make up for this damage. The WC-mage is better of casting max rank frostbolts from the start of the fight.

Alright mages, as a bored man on a Saturday night I had a go at these calculations. I am by no means an expert in math and I am leaving out a lot of variables, such as resists, travel time, https://classic.wowhead.com/spell=12953/piercing-ice, etc. I would love to hear your feedback on this post and see what you think.

Table with spell data:
https://classic.wowhead.com/spell=116/frostbolt R1https://classic.wowhead.com/spell=10181/frostbolt Max
Cast speed1.0 second2.5 seconds
Raw damage20-22 damage (21 avg)440-475 damage (457.5 avg)
Damage modifier0.163 SP0.814 SP
Total time for 5 https://classic.wowhead.com/spell=12579/winters-chill5.0 seconds12.5 seconds
 
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Repike

Class Leader
Joined
25th Sep 2019
Messages
412
Location
Netherlands
Class
Mage
Hey wizards,

Posting a quick update here as the master thread is still in the works!
After our class meeting a few weeks ago the following queries got brought up and I got your answers right here:

Q:When can we specc away from PvE speccs in BWL?
A: When we have clean BWL runs (pref. without wipes).

Q: Can T2 mages get equal priority on the neck from Hakkar as priests?
A: No, but don't be sad just yet! There's a stronger neck in Zul'Gurub: https://classic.wowhead.com/item=19923/jekliks-opaline-talisman with a very good droprate for a ZG drop. I know hit is an attractive stat, but sadly the numbers work in favour of this blue neckpiece.
And a side-note to this question, being a T2 mage does not entirely exclude you from every LC item like Tear.

Q: Should Talisman of E. Power be listed as BiS until P5 or P6?
A: discussion still on-going in mage chat. Argument right now is, is that Zandalari's charm pulls slightly ahead.
What partly makes this discussion difficult, is that some fights are longer than others, and some fights fall in the 90-100 second category, which allows for two TOEP uses but only one Zandalari use.

Q: Do Winter's Chill mages have lower priority on big loot pieces than arcane mages?
A: Short answer: no.
This idea probably stems from the fact that usually the lesser performing mages are forced in being WC mages, as was the case back in the day and on Private Servers. Lower performing, less gear. However, in Cyrus Winter's Chill mages aren't decided based on performance. Do keep in mind though, that if you are a Winter's Chill mage voluntarily (Hi Repike, oh wait, that's me!) and you are in the running for a big item like Mind-Quickening Gem, that you then may be asked to respecc into Arcane as to benefit the guild more with your new big item. If you do decide to stay Winter's Chill, then this *may*(!) influence the outcome of the big item recipient.

And now for the most interesting Q:
Q: Why do we need two Winter's Chill mages (w/ improved blizzard & permafrost) for BWL?
A: As promised, I chatted to @Inev about this and it boils down to this:
As we still have messy fights in Blackwing Lair, we prefer to have the safety-net of two winter's chill mages in case one of them dies earlier into the fight. The dps loss of not having any WC-mage alive would be thusly significant that it could impact the overall fight.

As soon as we can specc away from PvE for BWL, we can run with 1 WC mage again. I expect this to be soon, but I cannot give a date as of now.


Now, as we've talked about in mage chat, this answer isn't entirely satisfactory to some mages, so therefore I would like to invite the discussion to the forum so that all parties involved can reply to one-another and hear all sides of this one!
______________________________

Then, a few general notes for mages:
1. Until there's a verdict on the two WC-mage situation, we'll be running with 2 WC-mages (with improved blizzard and permafrost). @Dia has unfortunately stepped down as a volunteer and nobody has stepped in to take her spot (Thank you Dia for playing WC all this time!). Therefore, I'll be rotating mages to specc WC with each raid week. With the amonut of mages we currently have, this should mean you have to respecc about once every 1.5 months.
This roster will be published as April's raid rosters have been published, but most you have will have already seen the assignments in the mage chat.

EDIT: Success has kindly volunteered to be our second Winter's Chill mage. : )


2. To allow all mages to shine in a raid, I will now rotate Power Infusion assignment each week. Once we start progression again, PI assignments will be decided by performance again.
The reason for this is that PI's have always been floating in the air up until now, and they've often gone to random mages at potentially awkward moments. As we're stream-lining the usage of PI's in raids (thank you @Nouska ), I decided to get these strong buffs a bit more organised. The PI assignments are not set in stone, however, and if mages want to swap about, be my guest! They're a simple guideline if nobody speaks up.
This roster will be published as April's raid rosters have been published, but most you have will have already seen the assignments in the mage chat.

3. As promised, I'm currently working on a mage master thread where we can share WeakAura's, talent builds, consumable lists, farm spots and much more. I hope this thread is not only going to be useful for core mages, but also for other members who are looking to play a mage.
Once that thread is released, it will be used as the main thread to get all your mage updates for core raider mages.
A central hub for mage stuff, basicly.

Thanks for reading and I look forward to your replies
-Repike
 
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Dia

Guild Officer
Joined
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3,718
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Mage
Thank you, Repike!! Let's get that BWL clean clear so we can be in pvp specs! :D
 

Repike

Class Leader
Joined
25th Sep 2019
Messages
412
Location
Netherlands
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Mage
I should've clarified: Going winter's chill also means you go for Improved Blizzard and Permafrost! : ) Updating original post as well with this
 

Repike

Class Leader
Joined
25th Sep 2019
Messages
412
Location
Netherlands
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Mage
Breaking news: Success has kindly volunteered to be Winter's Chill mage, the winter's chill roster can be disregarded! : )

PS: still gonna need WC mages for when Succes or I are rotated ofc
 
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Redh

Guild Leader
Joined
13th Mar 2009
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9,456
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Paladin
Success has kindly volunteered to be Winter's Chill mage
Is this the best use of our soon to be 8/8 T2 Mage, or is Success just falling on his sword as usual? Do we absolutely need two Winters Chill mages for each raid? If so, why exactly?
 

Repike

Class Leader
Joined
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Messages
412
Location
Netherlands
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Mage
Do we absolutely need two Winters Chill mages for each raid? If so, why exactly?
As someone who disagrees with this policy entirely, I feel like the person enforcing this policy could answer your question better (@Inev ).This one's been a hot topic among mages and so far I have to find a single mage who agrees on using two WInter's Chill mages.

I'll use this oppertunity to repeat all counter-arguments for two winter's chill mages in BWL, as to hopefully get a healthy discussion going on the forums.
-Ice block does not prevent you from being bitch-slapped by Razorgore if you break the last egg. The tank cannot catch up in threat, even if the ice block lasted 30 seconds.
-Ice block does not remove the debuff you gain from mind controlling Razorgore
-We do not need slows for the phase 1 Nefarian adds, they die incredibly quick anyway. And if we do, we'd always bring at least two hunters to Nefarian, because of the simple fact you need hunters for Flamegor, the 3rd to last boss in the raid
-We do not need slows on the whelps in the suppression rooms
-Because of the increased survivibility winter's chill mages have (ice barrier, ice block), they're usually the last mage to die in a raid. Therefore, the winter's chill debuff would rarely be missing while arcane mages are still alive.
-Regarding ZG: Winter's chill's damage gain is going to be marginal for the 3-4 mages you'd bring to a ZG run. Besides, ZG is looking to be piss easy.

That being said, I hope @Inev reconsiders the policy on using two winter's chill mages. : )
Thanks for reading
 
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Success

Retired Member
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7th Sep 2019
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77
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Mage
Success just falling on his sword as usual?
@Redh Party this... I came online to see many, many messages regarding Winter's Chill. The mages seem very against the idea due to the drastic DPS loss in the Winter's Chill mage, however from what I can gather from the mass text I attempted to read, @Inev is adamant that he wants 2 Winter's Chill mages.

I'm not one for making the whole mage raid group suffer & have to spend their hard earned gold respec'ing every few raids. It doesn't bother me if I have to take Winter's Chill if it's helpful & if it helps keep the moral up within the mage ranks.

This way the conversation is handled and dealt with. No more 201 messages about "Yes", "Maybe" or "No"...

EDIT: I've already respec'd to Winter's Chill, so it doesn't bother me any longer if this doesn't continue. I do not mind staying Winter's Chill for the foreseeable furture as Tier 2 offer very little hit chance & due to this, I won't be breaking any records on the meters either way.
 
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Redh

Guild Leader
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Paladin
Thanks for the replies both of you. I will speak with @Inev and @Nouska before the next raid to get a better understanding of the situation, and we will either get back to you with a convincing reason as to why two WC mages are required, or we will switch to using one.

It is important that we are all on board with whatever decision is taken, so we will make sure to give it the proper consideration.
 

Aneurysm

Core Raid Member
Joined
10th Aug 2019
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181
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Mage
@Redh Party this... I came online to see many, many messages regarding Winter's Chill. The mages seem very against the idea due to the drastic DPS loss in the Winter's Chill mage, however from what I can gather from the mass text I attempted to read, @Inev is adamant that he wants 2 Winter's Chill mages.

This way the conversation is handled and dealt with. No more 201 messages about "Yes", "Maybe" or "No"...
We were just having a discussion, about various things, not just WC.
 
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Aneurysm

Core Raid Member
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10th Aug 2019
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No more discussions required. I don't mind being the full time Winter's Chill mage from now on.
I think the discussion was rather do we need 2 winters chill, and what was the optimal spec, not who was going to go it, but ok.
 
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