Mage Help your Class Leader and Loot Council mages!

Nouska

Raid Leader
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13th Aug 2019
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My dear thaumaturgists,

Raiding over the last week has proven one thing to me: Loot Councelling for mages is the hardest of all classes. That probably has something to do with the fact that I myself am one of them, but it is also complicated by the fact that we just are with so many that are all doing a lot of work in the guild to keep us moving forward.

The way loot works in Classic this will also mean that for any one mage to get the full set of gear they are aspiring to will take the longest of all classes. The popularity of the mage class is unfortunately not reflected in the loot drop percentage. Now, in order to streamline the process a bit more, I'd like to propose an idea for discussion. As we all know, the Netherwind is the nostalgic "I feel most like a mage" set in the game. But the set itself is not BiS for pure PVE. Now, we could slowly spread around the tier pieces to all our mages and we'll all have the full set once Naxx launches, but there is another way to approach this.

My suggestion is that we prioritise giving the 8-set Netherwind to people who really want it first. The benefit of that is:

- We profit from the set bonuses earlier
- It is really good for people that love to PVP and will help the groups the 8-set-mage is in to win more often
- It effectively splits the mages into 2 groups that allows us to spread loot more effectively and make the job a bit easier for your class leader and the loot council.

Obviously, the decision go want to go for 8-set Netherwind 1st comes at the price of allowing the mages that DON'T want this to go for full PVE-BiS first. That would mean things like:

- The pieces that compete with the 8-set go to the "PVE mages" first. Think of stuff like Mishundare or other individual parts of the 8-set bonus

We'd have to work out how this affects all the individual pieces, and most specifically the big ticket items. But if we'd want to implement something like this, it would make sense to start doing that now as it will also influence some of the decisions of loot drops in MC / Ony, such as the T2 pieces and the 1h / 2h that drop.

What are your thoughts on this and if you'd have to choose, which of the 2 categories would you prefer?

Let's discuss!
 
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Naz

Retired Member
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11th Aug 2019
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293
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Warrior
My dear thaumaturgists,

Raiding over the last week has proven one thing to me: Loot Councelling for mages is the hardest of all classes. That probably has something to do with the fact that I myself am one of them, but it is also complicated by the fact that we just are with so many that are all doing a lot of work in the guild to keep us moving forward.

The way loot works in Classic this will also mean that for any one mage to get the full set of gear they are aspiring to will take the longest of all classes. The popularity of the mage class is unfortunately not reflected in the loot drop percentage. Now, in order to streamline the process a bit more, I'd like to propose an idea for discussion. As we all know, the Netherwind is the nostalgic "I feel most like a mage" set in the game. But the set itself is not BiS for pure PVE. Now, we could slowly spread around the tier pieces to all our mages and we'll all have the full set once Naxx launches, but there is another way to approach this.

My suggestion is that we prioritise giving the 8-set Netherwind to people who really want it first. The benefit of that is:

- We profit from the set bonuses earlier
- It is really good for people that love to PVP and will help the groups the 8-set-mage is in to win more often
- It effectively splits the mages into 2 groups that allows us to spread loot more effectively and make the job a bit easier for your class leader and the loot council.

Obviously, the decision go want to go for 8-set Netherwind 1st comes at the price of allowing the mages that DON'T want this to go for full PVE-BiS first. That would mean things like:

- MH / OH combinations go to the "PVE mages" 1st, 2H to the "Netherwind" mages
- The pieces that compete with the 8-set go to the "PVE mages" first. Think of stuff like Mishundare or other individual parts of the 8-set bonus

We'd have to work out how this affects all the individual pieces, and most specifically the big ticket items. But if we'd want to implement something like this, it would make sense to start doing that now as it will also influence some of the decisions of loot drops in MC / Ony, such as the T2 pieces and the 1h / 2h that drop.

What are your thoughts on this and if you'd have to choose, which of the 2 categories would you prefer?

Let's discuss!
This is quite a common dilemma for non-hunter/warrior (rogue? others?) for what to do with tier gear that has a better use than in the raid.
Most tier is PvP prio in my opinon, at least in theory.

Mage is a special case though because full T2 is alright in PvE, especially in early AQ when you go Fire!
I was the full T2 Mage in my last guild (I got funnelled T2 first to get 8/8 and lost out on Mishundare/shoulders/Mana Igniting Cord etc for that reason). It gets a bit weird in later AQ, definitely not as good once big AQ pieces start to drop.


✅ It's a legitimate way to play imo, like 2H warrior DPS in Phase 1/2. Agree with those Mages getting prio on T2 but losing out on Mishundare etc, and I'd funnel T2 to each of those Mages only 1 at a time (then duplicates go to next T2 Mage).

⚠ Requires agreement of all Mages imo. Make sure everyone knows what's involved then let them vote on if they agree with the idea. Some may be miffed and would rather work on T2 slowly or be happy to just get a couple pieces - just a thought.

❌ Disagree with separation of 1H/OH vs 2H - unless I'm missing something? What's your main reasoning?
Also in BWL (when this gear drops), the 2H BiS is clearly better to me than the best 1H/OH, and thus weapons should be assigned irrespective of gear choice.
Same with Neltharion's Tear, Choker of the Fire Lord, etc - neither type of Mage would get prio on these imo.
Edit: On second thought in MC, if Mages wanted to work towards item=18842 for PvP and give up item=17103 prio for example, that would be an interesting discussion to have? There's some great PvP stats on that staff.

(edit: I misread this as a Loot Council forum post, as it was from Nouska! Have edited my post a little in that respect, and sorry for poking my nose into Mage business, this is a purely Loot Council perspective from me!)
 
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Repike

Class Leader
Joined
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I'm happy to pass PvP-appropriate gear to magi that know for sure that they will participate in the majority of PvP events within the guild.

To talk about Netherwind specifically: The three-set bonus (reduced threat generation) seems to be an easy overall damage increase for the raid, for the simple fact that we can start dumping spells into the boss or a recently spawned add earlier. That said, if there are no bosses with tight damage requirements, then I don't see the need to stack this three-set bonus on every mage as soon as possible.

In short, provided that raid progress isn't halted by lack of overall raid damage output, I am not bothered about PvP-oriented players having priority on the eight set bonus.
 

Maitai

Core Raid Member
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13th Aug 2019
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Mage
This may require an actual discord chat between all of us, if this is something we seek to pursue.

Decision pending....
 

Nouska

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Agreed that a discussion on the matter is a good thing! @Maitai: when shall we do it?

Something else (and not worth its own thread but good to know): The Rod of the Ogre Magi is a very viable alternative to the current Witchblade / Spirit combo, only to be sort of outclassed if you manage to snatch a Frozen Wrath Drakestone. Its basically a free 11 stamina and 7 spirit. In fact: I've went with it and slapped a +30 on it. Do keep in mind that you need to do a FULL tribute run (so with the ogre suit) to get it to drop!
 

Nouska

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HI MAGES!! Time to talk 8/8 tier again!

Decided to resurrect this thread from the dead as Success has decided to actually go for 8/8 and within about an hour and a half of that decision made 7/8 already. He WILL see a power spike when the 8-set hits and it will be a while before the "slot-bis" crew overtakes him. And that is all besides the obvious PVP advantages the set has.

THAT SAID

Since 7/8 pieces are already done and mage tier loot is dropping like mad for some reason - is there a SECOND mage interested? /discuss!
 

Rcarmine

Retired Member
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To this day the thought of having to give up prio on 1handers + offhand if you’re going for PvP stuff hurts my brain. If you want to PvP you’ll want to 100% prioritize 1handers even more so than you would in PvE.
 

Ralgost

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HI MAGES!! Time to talk 8/8 tier again!

Since 7/8 pieces are already done and mage tier loot is dropping like mad for some reason - is there a SECOND mage interested? /discuss!
First off... last night sounded like mage heaven!! Very nice to see and glad you all smashed it. My Mageblade felt extremely left out!! Me and @Dawarrior have sore heads but did manage to survive... Just!

Gratz to @Success on the 7/8!

Regarding a new 8/8 tier set. I’m willing to do anything that will help the guild/raid composition and will leave it up to you decide who is best fit for doing this based on their current gear set up. I feel that based on my current set up I wouldn’t be best suited to this as I have some really strong individual pieces (Igniting Cord, Arcane Accuracy Bracers) which would effectively become redundant. I will leave the decision up to @Nouska & @Maitai but I am keen and willing to do whatever you think is best!

Cheers!
 

Nouska

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To this day the thought of having to give up prio on 1handers + offhand if you’re going for PvP stuff hurts my brain. If you want to PvP you’ll want to 100% prioritize 1handers even more so than you would in PvE.
Completely agree - this is an old post and I didn't want to write a new one, but let's focus on the 8/8 part and the slots that involve that, not the weapon, which would run paralel / independent of this. I've updated the main post to remove the weapon comment.
 
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Dia

Guild Officer
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Hmmm this is a tough one because most of us don't want the 8/8 set to the detriment of not getting the better loot. If we'd get 7/8 in one night, that would be great but how often would that happen. As it stands, I have the legs and the helm. Maybe start giving it to one that has more pieces? I don't know, it's tricky...
 

Nouska

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It’s not mandatory ofcourse - once you complete it you’d get a power spike over the other mages, who will then start catching up and overtake you as they get the slot BiS items. After that is all done, we start replacing tier pieces with BiS that you then equip all at once if the breaking point is achieved. Raid wide it makes sense to do this as the overall benefit is greater... but it does take a short term sacrifice. Now, if you want to PVP the sacrifice isn’t very big as 8/8 is awesome for PVP!
 

Nouska

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I do agree it makes more sense to do this with no BWL bis yet awarded and you have 2 Dia :)
 

Rcarmine

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Hmmm this is a tough one because most of us don't want the 8/8 set to the detriment of not getting the better loot. If we'd get 7/8 in one night, that would be great but how often would that happen. As it stands, I have the legs and the helm. Maybe start giving it to one that has more pieces? I don't know, it's tricky...
but think about the fun changes this gives to your gameplay
 

Repike

Class Leader
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Hmmm this is a tough one because most of us don't want the 8/8 set to the detriment of not getting the better loot
So with my current work schedule I've been able to follow a decent chunk of what's being said in the Classic Mage Discord server and though they haven't gotten 8/8 T2 logs yet, simulations and theory's are pointing towards full T2 being very close to non-tier BiS set.
Can't give definite numbers right now though, sorry
 

Redh

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So with my current work schedule I've been able to follow a decent chunk of what's being said in the Classic Mage Discord server and though they haven't gotten 8/8 T2 logs yet, simulations and theory's are pointing towards full T2 being very close to non-tier BiS set.
I think part of the problem to consider is how you will eventually get out of the set. You will need a lot of non-tier raid loot to be able to make that transition, and it wont all come at once.
 

Nouska

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Yup, depends on which pieces, but you'll need a few of them before you then make the switch. It will all depend on what those definite numbers will be like - if 8/8 is quite competitive compared to non-tier BiS it would only be good as we'll have more options. But like with any set bonus - at SOME point you'll have to break it. Either with BWL gear or with AQ gear - and that will mean for those mages that there will be BiS sitting in the bank for some time. Still a good problem to have though.

Maybe next week @Success can provide the necessary logs :).
 

Success

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I think that I will be an excellent basis for seeing how 8/8 Tier 2 actually holds up in competitive PVE. I say that with confidence as I'm the only mage that does not have a single big DPS changing item such as:

https://classic.wowhead.com/item=17103/azuresong-mageblade
https://classic.wowhead.com/item=18820/talisman-of-ephemeral-power
https://classic.wowhead.com/item=18814/choker-of-the-fire-lord
https://classic.wowhead.com/item=19147/ring-of-spell-power

Although I'm going to have a massive mana pool advantage, I am still no where near the DPS output levels that the rest of the mages have, due to missing any big hitting items.

Because of this, it will be intriguing to see how much 8/8 actually helps keep me competitive compared to the likes of https://classic.wowhead.com/item=17103/azuresong-mageblade & https://classic.wowhead.com/item=18820/talisman-of-ephemeral-power.

Next week, I'll put my all into every boss to attempt to set a bench mark for how 8/8 can hold up. That way you can see that 8/8 might be worth considering even with loss of some loot prio.

I do think even though 8/8 will be a drop in DPS output potential, I think it will be the quickest way for us to get at least a few decent geared mages in the raid. In the end, we will all get some decent items to go with 8/8.

I also don't mind giving up my rolls for any other mage that would like to help us out & take 8/8. That way at least you know you won't be left too far behind.

Cheers,
Success
 

Redh

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I also don't mind giving up my rolls for any other mage that would like to help us out & take 8/8. That way at least you know you won't be left too far behind.
While I greatly appreciate your team spirit in making such an offer, I would not like this to be a consideration. While I do not want anyone to be obsessed by loot to the point that it causes drama, I do want people to be personally invested in their own progression alongside that of the raid. It should be a motivator to give your best effort, and to take this away from you for other reasons would not be good for you as an individual or us as a guild.

Thank you though, it was a nice gesture. If you really want to do your part, get a better weapon and enchant it please! ;)
 

Aneurysm

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I'd be okay with a decision either way from a personal standpoint, all loot is loot at the end of the day so it feels the same to me no matter what the upgrade - I do quite a bit of PvP i'd say so I would get good use out of the set I reckon. Kinda like what Ralgost said though, whatever is best for the guild and so on, if there's a mage that really wants it over someone who doesn't mind so much, then personally, i'd go with that particular mage :)
 

Nouska

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Guys - again - this is not mandatory. I see a lot of you making 'well if it really needs to be somebody' type posts. You either would love to have the set early at the cost of not getting the single slot BiS items first or not! So either you wholeheartedly say YES, I'd like that (and enjoy it!) or you don't and we just divide up the other stuff through Class Leaders / Loot Council as usual. But if you are considering it do let us know as it also might help in awarding stuff like the gloves who are both actual BiS and part of this set!
 
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